Designing for Success: How Smart Retail Environments Boost Footwear Sales with Lyn Falk

What makes a customer want to stay, browse—and buy?
In this episode of The Footwear Retailer Podcast, Pete Mohr sits down with retail strategist Lyn Falk of RetailWorks to talk about the psychology behind great store design. With over 30 years of experience helping independent retailers create high-converting spaces, Lyn shares what actually works when it comes to layout, signage, lighting, scent, and customer flow.

Whether you're opening a new location or just need a fresh perspective, this episode will help you see your store through your customers' eyes—and make smarter decisions that drive more sales.

Topics covered:
→ The biggest mistakes in independent retail design
→ How store flow impacts customer behavior
→ The right way to use scent and lighting
→ Why signage is often overlooked but crucial
→ Quick wins for a weekend refresh
→ When and how to consider a full redesign
→ The role of emotional and sensory engagement in buying decisions

Connect with Lyn Falk:
Website: https://RetailWorksInc.com
Email: lfalk@retailworksinc.com

Connect with Pete Mohr:
Website: simplifyingentrepreneurship.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/petemohr
Podcast: thefootwearretailer.com

The Footwear Alliance—a mastermind group for independent footwear retailers who want to accelerate growth, build long-term value, and lead with more clarity and confidence.

Enrollment is now open, a small group for just 6 to 10 retailers—to allow for deeper collaboration, real support, and tailored guidance.

Book a free call now at speaktopete.com
 

The Love It or Leave It tool helps you get clear on everything you’re doing… and figure out what you love, what you’re great at, and what it’s time to delegate or drop.

Watch the video and download the worksheet now at simplifyingentrepreneurship.com/loveit.

Clarity starts with knowing what’s yours to own—and what’s time to let go.

PLUS: Whenever you're ready, here are 3 ways I can help you move from the Operator’s seat to the Owner’s seat in your business:

1. Take the Value Builder Assessment to better understand the areas of your business that add the most value to your business - Click Here

2. Uncover your Kolbe. Whether just for you, or for your full team, better understand leadership strengths and ways you can advance your People - Click Here.

3. Listen my other podcast Business Owner Breakthrough podcast as well for quick tools and tips - Click Here

Transcript

0:00

Have you ever walked into a store and felt instantly like you want to buy more and you feel comfortable, all of that sort of stuff, when that immediate impression, I think is so important in retail. That's why I've invited Lynn Falk, the owner of Retail Works, onto the Footwear Retail podcast this week. And I'm so excited to have you with me, Lynn. Welcome in. Thank you, Peter. I'm very happy to be here. Excited to talk about the topics at hand. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's so much to talk. Retail stores are always evolving and really interesting. Yeah, exactly. Right. If they're not, there's. There's issue. And I think that's you. You lead the charge in a lot of that with what you do in store design and all the different things. So we're going to talk a little bit about the new and interesting things. We'll talk a little bit about how you help retail store owners and of course, footwear store owners. I know personally know a lot of people that you've helped with their brand and some of their store designs and things like that as well. And we got a chance to touch base a while ago and I said, I just gotta have you on as. As we met at the National Shoe Retailers association big event, the. The summit that we had a month or so ago. So it was good to finally meet. We write in the same publications that you know shoe retailers today. And it's like we haven't actually physically met, so it was great to actually physically meet and chat and. And we'll carry on the conversation here today. Looking forward to it. Cool. So, Lynn, 30 years now for retail works, right? 30 years goes quick. It's amazing how time passes. True. And a lot has happened in retail over 30 years. Oh my gosh. So true. I mean, I've been a retailer for half of that for the last 15 years. And I spent the. I like you have been around 30 years in business. I started in 94 and the first 15 years were in the service industry. In the last years in retail and even in the last 15 years. What a change. It's amazing. Tell us. Kind of go back to those early days. We won't spend too much time on it, but go back to those early days of why you got the business going and some of the seismic shifts that you've seen over the years. Oh, gosh. And I would say, you know, one of the first challenges back in the 90s that people were dealing with was, was, you know, really a lot of the competition where people would be There were businesses selling, whether it was gas stations, I think it was with the Beanie Baby craze, you know, convenience stores started selling things that the regular general store or apparel store or department store was selling. So I remember first starting out and it was just the amount of competition that retailers were having to fight against. And then, you know, we do a lot of work on downtown main streets and historical buildings. So it was the urban sprawl. It was. And then the big Walmarts and the big box stores that came in and wiped out a lot of independent retailers. And it really caused retailers and designers and consultants like me to say what is going to keep that independent alive? What is going to keep them able to get people through the front door and get loyalty and people to come there and buy versus going where they might get it a little cheaper down the road or drive a little ways. So that was probably the first, you know, big hump to get over. And then I would say, you know, 9, 11 was a bit of a hiccup. And then 2008 with the economy collapsing for a while and then we had Covid. So all of these things, I would always say retail is like the Darwinian's theory of the strong survive and the weak will be weeded out. And it is true. Those that don't have the ambition, the passion, the desire to keep up, they end up having to close their doors. And really the ones that are excited about the upcoming trends or what to do different or. And I say now retailers almost have to stand in their heads. They have to literally think and work and entertain outside of the box. Retail is not what it used to be anymore. Now granted there are a few stores that maybe have 100 year history. Yeah. And they're, you know, they. No one wants them to change because they've been like that forever and it works for them. That's. They're not many like that. And so, you know, it's always who's the upcoming target market and what are their desires and needs and how are they shopping and how are you delivering a retail customer experience to meet those expectations and needs? When you look at some of that stuff, Lynn, as far as. Because we've got to take that and put it into store design. I mean the store design is basically your forte. And you know, how are you. When you think of that psychology of the different demographics and the different age groups and all of that, I mean we won't go too deep into that. But how have store designs changed as the next 20 year sort of period comes up and we've got the, you know, the Gen X and the Gen Y, all these different ones as they roll through, you know, is when you, when you're putting your lens on that, how do you design for that? How do you design for the next 15 years? Yeah, and, and there are a lot of different lenses that I look through when I'm designing a store for a client. And certainly the target market is a number one. And with these younger generations, they are expecting an omnichannel retail experience, which means there's a digital component. So something on their phone or QR codes or an app. You know, it's a, it's a very integrated way to shop. It's just not coming in without some digital component attached to them. There is going to be that and they want to learn more information about the retailer or the product that they're looking at, and they want it instantly. So that's one lens that we're looking at. The second lens is what are the trends in retail in general? Like right now, retail is all about a social experience. It's about being out with friends or family and doing something that's a form of entertainment. Yes, they might be there to buy something for themselves or for some. Someone else, but they want to learn something. They want to be, like I said, entertained. They want an efficient experience. So it's all about like, what is shopping right now. And so the target market's one thing and then just retailing as general. The third lens is because we are all humans and we're Americans for the most part. Doesn't matter where you came from initially, but you are here, you're reading English, you're, you know, we are just like I said, it's the physiological thing that we are humans. So we react to certain, I call it the laws of nature and elements and principles of design the same way, because we're all human. So if you put the color red on a wall versus the color blue on the wall, we're going to have similar reactions to those colors just because we're human and we look at how our brain works. There's the very basic reptilian brain in the back here that was first developed. I don't want to get too far off here. But all the way up to the more recent brain, the neocortex up here. So this is more of the left brain and that defines, you know, interprets a space. But we're still working way back from our instinct, instinctual fight or flight brain, that reptilian brain and that is over 85% of our purchase decisions are made with our right brain, our emotional, our intuitive brain. So setting up an entire store to address the way we as humans interpret environment, experience an environment is huge. I mean, that's often where I will start first. Then I look at the trends and the brand and the target market. Oh, and the brand is another, another lens. So each individual retailer has to have a very strong message, a strong brand, a strong color, texture, logo, an aroma or a jingle. It's very sensory. And we try to bring a 2D brand into a 3D environment. So those are all ways that we work to keep a store successful. I know some of the stuff that we've done with our, our shoe stores. At Utopia, we've created a jingle years ago and it continues to flow and even backing music on different pieces and things like that that continues to run just a variety of different things. As you, as you sort of laid it out there. Do you work with music production and what you'll create jingles? Do you, do you help people with rebranding logos and stuff like that? Or are you pretty much just sticking to let's do store development? Well, no, we do. We've ended up backing into branding and logo development because sometimes that's always one of the first places we'll start with a question. It's like, where are your brand guidelines? We need to see those. Do they need to be refreshed, tweaked or. Some don't even have any. Yeah, so we now have graphic artists that work very closely with our interior designers. And we, we are doing branding now. We do not go as far as what I call like the old traditional advertising to get a jingle going. We might recommend that. Yeah, but we wouldn't do that ourselves. Yeah, we might recommend that they have a photo shoot or get some, you know, photography done. Yeah, but we wouldn't do that ourselves. So it's really an all encompassing picture of what we want to see. But we will only take the parts that we're good at. When you say the scent side of things, that, that tweaked one for me too. I spent 15 years in the cleaning services business and we had thousands of air freshener machines out that we looked after on a weekly basis. And do you get involved in scent and things like that too? Yes, that we will a little bit. Music selections and then scents. And the one thing I always say is try not to get the plan plug in artificial. Exactly. Dispensers, like aromatic dispensers, because people can have Reactions to those, they can get headaches, they can get allergic reactions. So we try to be natural. And for just a small retailer, we suggest getting a little Crock pot for 19 at a local store and then filling it with water and putting in some essential oils or some spray spices or herbs or some citrus or something, depending on the time of year. Turn that on for the first hour of the day, shut it off. If you need to refresh it in the afternoon, turn it on for another hour. But that is. And it should be subtle. It shouldn't be like someone walks in and goes, holy cow, what's that smell? It's. Oh, it smells nice in here. And a lot of what we do, we want that. It's almost. It's not. I don't want to say it's subliminal, but it's subtle. So someone walks in, they go, I just love shopping here. Like you said in the beginning of this podcast, you said, you know, why does someone just feel good in a space? Well, as a business owner, you have to be able to break that down and say, well, they feel good because, you know, we've got good carpet under their feet, so it's not loud, or we've got the right music, or we have the right scent, we have the right focal points, we have the right lighting, and it creates an unbelievable ambiance. We are in control of hundreds of variables, and it's really a powerful position, if you think about it, because you can create this environment that motivates people to stop at certain places and read something, to engage in a display and pick something up to walk in area that you want them to walk. People talk about dead zones. Well, there shouldn't be a dead zone. If you lay it out correctly and you position focal points correctly and you illuminate those focal points, you can get someone to walk the entire store. So it's really about manipulating all these design variables to create that environment that you know is going to work. I love it. I mean, when you were talking about sort of the flow, I was thinking of Ikea, how they. How they guide you through the store, and whether you're. Whether there's physical boundaries or whether it's just sort of the. The want to go to the. To the light. Let's say take me to the light. You know, as footwear retailers, what we really want to do is we want to get them to touch that shoe. Yes. The more you can get. Pick up the shoe. That's. It's like, that's step one, right? Yes, yes. You get closer to purchasing when you can actually pick something up, try it on. Absolutely. You know, just the walking through a store is just the very, very basic top layer. We need emotional engagement, physical engagement, sensory engagement, verbal engagement. There's, there's a lot that goes on there, a lot of levels. And so when our job is done, we have to pass this over like it's like the new car driving the new car. We're passing the keys over to the business owner and the employees and we say, now you need to drive this, you need to read the manual, you need to know how to work and have operations work within this new environment. Because we just had an instant in another state with a retailer that's in more of a kitchenware and things, but redid two stores that were side by side in old historic buildings, completely remerchandized, culled a lot of the inventory. But the, the employees still wanted to work the old way and the owner was just really frustrated. So I can't get people to be on board with the new way. And I said, well, you know, that's where again, even the Darwinian theory might come into play with employees. They have to be passionate and buy into the new culture, the new look, the new brand, the way you're going to start selling. And if you need to weed those out and get new ones that will embrace the new brand, the new look, the new layout, the new way to sell, then you have to do that. How much coaching do you get into on that stuff, Lynn? Because really we need to get the business owner, or in certain cases it might be a general manager of a given location, whatever the case is on board. And if they're not on board themselves, the changes, physical changes can happen, but the mental ones don't always happen. So how much sort of when you're going and working with a chain or even an independent retailer with only one store, how much of those kind of conversations go on with your sort of coaching along as you pull them through this whole three month, six month, one year process of where they were to where they're going to be? Yeah, we have a digital questionnaire that we send out ahead of time and we try to get the owner to share that with key employees. So we get some buy in from them and they feel like they have some ownership of the process and oftentimes, you know, they're the ones on the floor. They have insights that we need to know about. They might know their customer a lot better than, well, not might. They do know their customer a lot Better than we do. So we have to gain a lot of information from them. So when they're part of the process. Oh, I have to say this one out west, I said they were part of the process and they still couldn't make the transition. But most do. Most when they have that buy in and they feel helpful and it's like, oh, and then they see that there are some of their suggestions were implemented, they have some pride in it. And then they're all, they're usually like, oh yeah, this is great. And they're more motivated. They feel like they have a fresh place to work. They're. They can bring on some new skill sets themselves, maybe they go to more training. But oftentimes the majority of times it will work. It's just every once in a while it doesn't. If you think about a percentage, how many of the customers that you work with these days are new builds versus retrofits of old existing businesses that have been around for whatever, 10, 20, 100 years that want to refresh. So how many are you kind of saying I'm helping you build, build this new location? And how many would be sort of retrofit type thing? That's a good question. And it kind of seems to vary throughout the year, but overall, maybe 50, 50, maybe more. 60 that do retrofits, refreshes. Right. But we do have a lot of people that maybe have one store and are opening a second store or are moving completely their store to a new location. We have a lot of those going on right now. A lot. So yeah. Or. Yeah, that's probably a good answer. Yeah. So you, you partner with a variety of different installers and suppliers and shelving companies and lighting companies and all sorts of different things that you would need to fit up location. Right? Yes. And often we will first try to work with the client's local fabricators, contractors, subcontractors, of course, because they often have the relationships and it can be more cost effective. But when it comes to specialty items or some real custom cabinetry, we do have several options that then we can bring those in and have them shipped and installed. Lighting, though, is probably the toughest one to get local electricians on board to really understand how to illuminate a retail environment, especially if it's a smaller town and a smaller electrical company. So we feel we're really having to up our game in lighting and understand and specify what we feel is the best. And we're trying to partner with some really great national companies that can help support that process. Because honestly, you can have a beautiful design, but if it's not illuminated properly, it's. You're not going to get the sales out of it. Yeah. So when you're talking about the flow and you're talking about the lighting and the process that goes in there, tell us about that sort of visual hierarchy. When I'm walking through the store, where are my eyes going and how. How does that normally work? I think that's sort of a normal question that most retailers have. And even if they haven't used a professional like yourself, they're trying to think of flow. And some people, you know, have door counters and it'll map traffic for people, where they're going, where the hotspots are, all that kind of stuff, which is an interesting concept and sort of outside of this particular conversation. But if. If you're just trying to get this idea of how should I generally lay stuff out and how should I have a couple of focal points that are going to draw people, what would you suggest for somebody who may not be ready for sort of your services, but are thinking in the back of their head? I need a couple of small changes, probably. Right. And I always say, walk in the front door and stand there. If you were just pretend you're a new customer, where would your eyes go and how would you find what you're looking for? So, you know, if you're looking for running shoes, you're looking for kids shoes or women's dress shoes, where are they? No one wants to walk into a store and feel stupid. So the first level is some really good signage that is again, branded. So I don't want to see 14 different types, shapes, sizes, fonts, colors and signs. Like all your department signs should look the same. But I want to be able to do a quick view scan of the store and say, oh, that's where I need to go. Oh, but I didn't realize they had xyz because I see the sign quickly. That's where again, it's almost with subliminal learning where they. The eyes will scan the. And kind of absorb. But I know where I need to go. So that's the first thing is to identify where someone needs to go. Then you create a traffic pattern that gets you to any of these departments. So it's real easy to get from point A to point B. Shopping should never be an effort. And oftentimes retailers put these obstacles or these blocks in the way. And there's a difference between putting an obstacle in and a focal point display. Right. Or the feet follow the Eyes. So en route to wherever I want to go, I want to see a focal point display that will entice me, make me laugh, make me smile, make me want to pick something up. And I want Those about every 15 to 20ft in a store, depending on the size of the store. If it's a bigger store, we go 20 to 30ft and they start out lower. It might be a nesting table up front. And then you build up the height as you get back so that even a back wall can be considered a display focal point. But it's really important for signage, traffic aisles and focal point displays to be located and laid out strategically because those are your, those are your tools right there. I love it. I think all of this, the stacking of the heights. Most retail stores, not all, but a lot of retail stores, tend to have a bit of height, you know, 10, 12ft type thing. If you're, you know, you might be in an eight foot ceiling, but I would say it's more common to have a bit more height. Would you agree? Right. Yes. Eight foot is really residential. So almost every commercial space minimum would be 9ft with a typical between 10 and 12. So I mean, there's a fair bit of height where you could either hang signs or layer things in from that front door in so that everything's sort of strategically positioned until you get to that back wall. Right, Correct. Exactly. And then how do you lay, you know, we've got signage and you said, well, I usually start with signage. What would the next step be? With signage? Yeah, no, like if we, if we're laying out that we've got our department signed, that kind of stuff. Right. Where do we go now? So then it's the actual traffic aisles. So we're looking at a floor plan and we would lay out the traffic aisles to get to all the departments. And then along those aisles is where you put your focal point displays. So it really happens on a floor plan, a CAD drawing, a blueprint, to use an old term. That is the best way to be able to lay out to see how someone's going to get to different points in the store. And then where and how are they getting to what I call the heartbeat of the store? And that's the checkout counter, the transaction counter. And it's interesting because transaction counters, a lot of conversation can happen around this counter because it can be a service counter, a repair counter, the checkout counter. And then we also have oftentimes I call like satellite checkouts or little spots where an iPad could be. And to Keep people from clogging that service counter. So where are we positioning those? And are they little kiosks? Are they kiosks on casters? But we want to be able to also see not only how the shopping is working, but how is the checkout process working. And again, how to get to these places or how can the employee get to the customer where they're sitting? You know, Nordstrom's was one of the first ones in their shoe department where once you're done trying on your shoe, they come over and they check you out right where you're sitting. So you didn't even have to get up and carry the shoe box over to the checkout counter. So with the new digital applications, you know, checking out is kind of a whole nother conversation these days. But we still need a main one. There's still enough people that are looking for that main checkout counter. When you're guiding people through in the focal points you mentioned how many of those focal points are sort of tactile or how many of them are digital, or what are some of the focal points that you've seen that have really been working in the footwear industry in the last year or two? Yeah, so the measuring devices like Atrex, those are great focal point displays, especially when you have a sign, you know, hanging above it. Flat screens and movement video is always a great attention getter, so that becomes a focal point. Elevated display platforms, maybe with mannequins, especially, like in a running department, they might have some running mannequins. And some shoe stores are certainly selling apparel too. So that makes sense. So elevated displays that are also well lit. So if you do have some mannequins or some bust forms or something that there's a lot, plenty of light on them. It could even be just something like an Instagram wall that doesn't necessarily sell shoes, but it's a place where someone can take a picture of themselves. And it has the name of the store behind them. And it might just be a really cool wall covering or a really cool neon shape or something. It could be a green wall. Anything to get someone to go, oh, is that. Oh, I want to go over there. I want to see that. It could be a moving rotating display. It could be stacks. It could be a display, just a really cool sculptural elements with stacked ceramic shoe boxes. So it's a more permanent focal point display. Could be something that's really cool, made out of shoelaces. Maybe it's something hanging from the ceiling. So there are a Lot of ways. And this is when I said in the beginning, retail is entertainment these days. It's. It's photography, it's Instagram, it's social. It's not just about selling a product anymore. It's about selling a brand and an experience. I'm going to call one out, a focal point that I saw recently that I believe you had a hand in. And it was an awesome bench at Elm. Oh, yes, yes. Right. They opened a new running store and their bench kind of is. It looks like a spine that kind of goes down and, you know, it curves and it's all. It's just the most interesting focal point for a sitting bench. I think it was. It was just a really interesting piece. Well, and Pete, just wait because in another week or so, they're installing a focal point over their checkout counter. So it's going to be similar into those slats of the seating unit. It's going to come up and go over. So kind of create this really cool, like, wood awning and that you'll be able to see right away when you enter the store. And it's just again, going to help draw someone in. Really cool. Pendant lights can draw someone in. There are pendant lights that are, you know, can be made out of, again, looking like shoes. I have a. In one of my presentations, I have a photo of a light fixtures with just 30 shoes hanging from it. So, so cool. Yeah. There's so many different ways that we can create interest in the store and, and get people that, you know, like you said, they're Instagrammable shots. And if somebody's going to take it this picture and post it and say, I was in this cool store, just think of the value that that's bringing. As, you know, from an advertising perspective, you would pay, you know, as much to have that posted or whatever the case is. It's an amazing thing when you create these interesting focal points. Yeah. All of your customers can really be little walking advertisements for you if you create a cool environment. Lyn, in the last few years, what might have been one of your favorite footwear trends, transformations from what it used. To be to what we were saying. Who's your favorite child? Yeah, no, I suppose, but we don't, we don't have to. We don't have to actually name names here, but if you're thinking back of some of the, some of the brands and we don't even really have to talk footwear, but, you know, because we're all retailers and I think the biggest thing here is when, when we think of some of the coolest things that you've done and some of the things that maybe the owner was giving you sort of a lot of hesitancy on and they said, finally said, okay, we'll do it your way. You know, that that kind of thing is, is there a couple of instances that that has happened and you're like, you were kind of in the back of your mind, you're saying, I knew this would work. I'm so glad they did it. Yes. I would say sometimes, you know, clients get in their own way and it's usually fear based because they've never ventured out that far. Their dad didn't, their grandfather didn't, you know, and oh my God, what are they going to do to the, to the legacy of this store? So that's a lot of it. But yes, when a client trusts us and maybe has seen some of our other work and talked to other retailers, then they're a little more likely to let go of that fear and say, you know what, I got nothing to lose, let's do it, let's try it. And, and if we need to pull back or shift it a little bit, you do. But for the most part, those that are willing to take the jump are very pleased. They'll say, oh my gosh, we are. Sales are through the roof. Yeah, people just, that's, that's the ROI is most important to us. One, the client's happy, but two, that that design is working. I grew up in a mom and pop retail environment and my dad would always say, you take a dollar from a retailer, you have to be able to improve their bottom line. And so now, you know, we really built the business on good design, consumer understanding, consumer behavior and profit loss statements and traffic counts and sales, what they call the basket sales or cart sales, sales per person that's coming through. How are we increasing that? I'm not just going to create a beautiful store. It has to be a functional, profitable store. So those clients that allow me to kind of push that envelope a little bit and they trust those are the best results, I feel. Otherwise you get a watered down version and then no one's really ever happy and you're not going to really see the sales results. Yeah. And you put, you've still put out a significant amount of money. Right. In order to make some of the changes, maybe not all of them, and then it's just not where you want it to be. Right, Exactly. Lynn. You know, I'll use this as sort of a quick win question. If you Only had a weekend to freshen up your store, let's say in Canada, it was a long weekend. This weekend, as we're, as we're recording, and I know Memorial Day, as we're recording here, is next weekend for you. If you were saying, okay, I'm going to. We usually close on the stat holiday, whatever the case is. I'm going to take an extra day. I've got two days that I'm just going to close down and, and knock off some things. Or maybe it's the winter months and you're saying I'm going to close a winter, you know, a weekend in the winter or a couple of days in the winter. I got two days. That's all the time I can afford to be closed. And I'm going to nail as much of this as I can. Where do you start and what would you do? That's such a good question. I get it asked. I get asked that a lot. The easiest things to change, I feel, right off the bat would be paint color, adding accent color somewhere, or accent wall signage, getting your signage in order. Because so many people put up signs that no one reads because they have no sign design guidelines. So I mentioned earlier, you know, you have your department signs, they all have to look similar. You have your promotional signs, they should all look similar. And when I say look similar, I mean the same size, the same card stock, or the same color system, the same font system so that you. And the same thing with product benefit signs and sales signs, because you're training your repeat customers. They come in, they go, oh, they must have a new product, because I see that their new product sign, it's just again, subliminal. They're like, oh, yeah, oh, they're having a promotion. I see their promotional sign, people start to read those signs. So getting your signage in order is a great thing to do on some slow days. And then merchandising. So this is a, this is one of the toughest things we have to deal with when we're working with a retailer that's been in business a long time and been doing things the old way. And that is putting everything on the floor. If they, if the customer doesn't see it, they don't think we have it and they won't buy it. And the opposite is true. Less is actually more. The brain actually will shut down if there are too many options. And there's a, there's a famous study out there that talks about how many peanut butter brands were put on a display shelf in a grocery store. May even have been Walmart. Might have been like 19 brands. Don't quote me on that. They reduced it like 4 to 6 and sales went up remarkably. So. Too many things for someone to look at. People can't make a decision and so they don't, they don't buy. So we call it sometimes the go in and clean, organize and subtract method. You don't have to spend any money except on my team to come in and we reorganize. Because when you have an organized store and you don't have purses with scarves, with shoes, with signs, with props, with risers, I mean, no one sees that on a nesting table anymore. But you create a clean focal point display on a nesting table that has a theme and gets people motivated for a particular one or two product lines. You will sell more. So signage, color and merchandising are my three go to's for super simple. And then my, my fourth one, if you, if you had the time and money and expertise is to check your lighting. I love it. I love it. And you know, we could dig into pretty much any one of these topics for a full episode. I think we could do an episode on lighting, we could do an episode on, you know, layout, all, all these different things. But you've given us a great little overview, Lynn, on a few things and hoping the idea of the podcast here is to get, get the footwear retailer thinking and get them to, you know, contemplate these different things. Often they're busy in making, you know, the decision of the day. These are bigger, these are bigger things. And you know, thinking about a full store retro is sometimes so big and so sort of that I don't even want to start thinking about it because I'm, it's going to cost me a lot of money. It's going to spend a lot of time, it's going to create a lot of confusion. But I do think that, you know, the future of independent retail is dependent on keeping up with this times and some of these things and we need to be always changing little bits, sometimes bigger bits, and sometimes entire brands and stores in order to make things happen for us as, as we look down the road. And you know, I loved our conversation today. If you could sort of give one last piece of advice to an independent shoe store owner at this point in time, what would it be, Lynn? Travel and shop other stores, not even in the shoe industry, but don't get stuck behind your cash register all the time and in your store all the time. You know, a lot of these. And that's the beauty of things like the National Shoe Retailers association is they have their conferences and of course, the shoe shows out there. It forces people to go out and visit other communities, other cities, other retailers, because that's where you're going to see who's doing what and who's doing what well. And the more you are tuned in to this sensory customer experience that you need to create, the more you're going to absorb good ideas from others. Because you need to start thinking through all of your senses and thinking out of the box. Not just where you've been for the last 10, 20 years, but what is, what is important today to get your retail environment engaging, emotionally engaging. You know, how can you do it different? So, you know, eyes wide open, ears wide open, go out and shop other places, travel. That to me is one of the biggest gifts for a store owner. And it's easier then for us to work with them when they've kind of seen what's possible. I love it. Thanks so much, Lynn, for taking part, taking the time to spend with me. If anybody wants to reach out to you or learn more about your business, where should they go? They can go to retailworks inc.com or email me at l falketailworks inc.com so l f a l k@retailworks inc.com and I am quite accessible and I do get back to everyone quite quickly because I am a workaholic. Awesome. Well, I appreciate it, Lynn. Thanks again and love to have you back on. I would love to be back on, Pete. Thank you very much. Make it a great day.