Forging Bonds and Fueling Progress: Leadership Insights from Josh Habre

Struggling to grow your footwear retail business without getting overwhelmed? Josh Habre shares how he expanded from 6 to 15 stores, mastered acquisitions over openings, and built a leadership structure that fuels success. Learn how to apply EOS systems, decision-making frameworks, and succession planning to your business—whether you're a single-store retailer or managing multiple locations.

💡 Key Takeaways:
 → How to scale a retail business the smart way
 → Why acquiring existing stores can be a better strategy than opening new ones
 → How to structure your leadership team for sustainable success
 → The key to preventing burnout while growing your business
 → What makes a retail business attractive for acquisition

📧 Connect with Josh:

Email: josh@erhcoinc.com

Websites: 

• www.shoemill.com
• www.djangoandjuliette.us
• www.zierashoes.us

📩 Connect with Pete:

Email: pete@simplifyingentrepreneurship.com

Website: Shoetopia

Podcast: The Footwear Retailer Podcast

PLUS: Whenever you're ready, here are 3 ways I can help you move from the Operator’s seat to the Owner’s seat in your business:

1. Take the Value Builder Assessment to better understand the areas of your business that add the most value to your business - Click Here

2. Uncover your Kolbe. Whether just for you, or for your full team, better understand leadership strengths and ways you can advance your People - Click Here.

3. Listen my other podcast Business Owner Breakthrough podcast as well for quick tools and tips - Click Here

Transcript

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Josh, it's a pleasure to have you here on the footwear retailer. Thanks for joining me today. Thanks for having me, Pete. Before we hopped on here, it's like every time we get together, there's just so much stuff to talk about. We always have great conversations. And I said, I gotta get Josh on right off the bat here. As we roll through this, this, for everybody listening, Josh is a wealth of information. Looks at things from so many different angles in the footwear industry. And not only are you a third generation retailer with multiple stores, you're a wholesaler. You've taken over this next generation. You're leading the charge for the family business. Lots of stuff going on, lots of decision making happening without you and some decisions happening with you as you grow this empire of footwear. So when you came into the business and you guys started, you know, looking at this and saying, mom and dad gonna, we're gonna jump into this as a family. And, and how does that look like what happened? You said, you know, it's sort of been five years since you really seriously put your stamp on it, give us sort of some guidelines of what before you got into that in 2019, where were things at and what have you done since? Okay, well, you make me sound better than I am, so I appreciate that. But I, I, you know, really, I'd done, I'd been in the business for like 25 years, you know, started in high school, whatever, and about 25 years. And, and my dad had, we started the succession planning through the NSRA's Next Gen program that you talked about. And my dad was being proactive and realized, and it was really, it was him and my aunt, they were that second generation, and they realized, okay, sunset's coming. And so in 2019, I was promoted to president of the company. And I got my brothers, everybody together and said, what really do we want? Like, who's seriously in, who's not? And we looked at the numbers and realized, my three brothers, so there's that, that's four families, plus my dad and my aunt in their retirement. How is this business, which was at the time six stores, going to support six families? And it just wasn't. And so I had the book Traction kind of laying around and started reading that. And then the pandemic hit in 2020, and it was like the perfect. What else were we doing other than, you know, the two weeks to slow the spread that turned into three months to see if you still have a business. Exactly. And in that time, I bought copies of the book for everybody. Said, we're going to read this and this is what we're going to implement in our business because we knew we needed to grow. Like, how do you support six families? Right. And so we went on an expansion spree. We'd had some options to acquire some businesses that didn't have a succession plan, and we just started executing that. How did you find out about those, Josh? Like, when you're thinking, it's like, okay, well, we're talking about it internally. But now it's like, for those that may be listening and thinking, well, do I want to expand and am I going to expand? Because this is another option. It's like, do you expand by acquiring or do you expand by opening locations? Sure. I like the idea of expanding through acquisition because one day the stores has customers coming in, making sales, and the next day those sales are coming to you. And we've opened enough stores that just didn't get off the ground because the marketing expense, you know, it's not exciting when a new store opens unless it's like a Trader Joe's or a Costco or like, you know, something big, sorry, a shoe mill store doors, not moving the needle in the state of Oregon, but in our state, my dad and that generation, they were all very friendly competition in each city. And so. And they were all roughly the same age. And so we'd see each other at shoe shows and just talking. We knew that there wasn't much. And so the first acquisition was down in Eugene, Oregon. My dad knew the guy and they flirted with the idea for like seven to 10 years. They talked, when are you going to buy my store? And dad finally said, hey, never activated. And so that came up at the end of 2019. And we were able to close that February 7th of 2020. Close the transaction. Right. Which was. We were pumped for those first five weeks. Yeah, yeah. We had five weeks of really good sales, and then there it goes. But that worked out fine. And then not too long after that, another, you know, our second acquisition in that time frame that we closed in 2022, also February of 22, we've been talking with over time as well. So these were just retailers that we knew we were friendly competition with. And they are just, you know, and so when they knew we were looking to grow. There's not a huge market for people looking to acquire shoe stores. So if someone's looking to acquire. Strike while the iron taut, so to speak. Yeah. You know, that's how. That's how we knew about them. Yeah. And as a certified Exit planner. I mean, I go through that stuff a lot with different businesses and, you know, help them get their business ready for sale. But as somebody who's an acquirer, you can get a better discount if the business actually isn't ready for sale. Right. From that side of things, if they don't have their process in place, if they don't have things in alignment, if they're using old systems that don't equate for what people are expecting in today's sort of world of business, all sorts of different things that a lot of the podcast is about growing these things so that you're building value in your business. But from the other side, when you're trying to acquire, you're looking at those things as opportunities that you can actually bring and advance the value of the business under your ownership. Right. Because nobody buys something to keep it the same. They're buying it with this idea of how can I grow this thing and how can I make it even better? Absolutely. And the idea is, if you're looking like what makes an attractive purchase, I mean, there's so many factors. I mean, we could dive into that. From my perspective of what makes an attractive purchase, we could dive into that a bit. But at the end of the day, we are looking to apply our processes to add value to a very. A stable business, a good business that has, you know, foot traffic coming in and a good location that has traffic in a community. And if we can either increase the margin or through our advertising, drive a little more traffic, you know, we want to apply our processes to grow the business. So, Josh, you've been in the business for 25 years, right. As you roll through, were all of your other brothers involved that, like, were full time in the business as well at the time, or did they kind of come in as you set up this family plan to take it and run with it and grow it. Right. So my next brother down, he's three years younger than I am, and he was. He was in the business 22 years at that time. So we, you know, both exited high school and just in high school, even started in the business and whatever. Brother number three is exactly 10 years younger than I am. Right. And so he's about 10 years behind, and then brother number four is behind him. But we'd all, I mean, the jobs we'd had have been in the business. Yeah. And of the four of us, three have been active. The first three of us have been active in managing store, selling shoes. First, like starting in the back room, then selling shoes. Then assistant manager, the manager. And then working our way up, brother number four took a different path entirely. Digital, which is what we needed, what we are so for. I am so fortunate that my four brothers, we just seamlessly like this. Our strengths make up for each other's weaknesses. And so it's really, it's wonderful. And so none of us have the digital side. So brother number four, Jordan, man, he's carved a great niche for himself. He's the only one that didn't come up through the stores, so to speak. And I mean, isn't that so important whether they're your siblings? And it's awesome that they are your siblings, but this idea of having these people that complement you along the way and the management team and the executive team of stuff, it's such an important piece as you look to grow, that we're filling those other areas from that Colby lens that I know, you know as well as I do from, from a Colby perspective, as a Colby coach, working with people and looking at some of these things, it's like, where are the gaps in the team here? How are we communicating effectively? How are we working together effectively? What are those? And from the EOS lens that you had talked about, entrepreneurial operating system or any of the other operating systems that are out there is like, how are we laying out this accountability chart so that the right butts are in the right seats and so that everything's happening in a systemized, processed way that makes sense where people can be held accountable and things can get done without our involvement in every step of the way. And I think that's the big thing with people once you get to your 14 stores now, Josh, is that right? Yeah. And we're going to. Yes. And we're going to open number 15 in April. And I have actually signed an NDA yesterday for somebody that wants an acquisition. So, I mean, we're looking, I mean, it's like it just keeps rolling when. You have a system in place and you're also wholesaling. Right. You've got a couple of brands for whole on the wholesale division. Yes. Yeah, we, yes, we import and distribute two brands out of Australia and, and have really good, I mean, like, good success at that. I, I, I pinch myself sometimes, but it is, it speaks to the value of a system. Like the hard thing as an independent retailer, when my dad, my grandpa, you know, they had one store, then two, then four and got up to six and, you know, you're really hands on and being able to say, dude, the employees, everything in our Family is tied up in shoeboxes in your back room and we're entrusting you with that. And so we're going to be a little hands off. We're going to empower you to do the job because we need to grow and that's a fearful thing to turn over, you know, everything in your family to, to trust people so that you can not be in, you know, as hands on and so you can capitalize on opportunities. You know, I know the three things that we had talked about, you're part of your ethos, right? Yeah. Is forging bonds fueling process and embracing the thrill. And we've talked about forging some bonds right there. It's like we need to have the people in my, in my sort of 6ps. It's, it's align the promise. Align your product, your process, your people and your promotion to it so you can have the right amount of profit. But however we talk about in whatever language, this idea of forging the bonds not only with our team but with the ideal customers and our ideal suppliers. Right. So that actually deliver the promise that we're delivering at our shoe stores. Fueling that process which has been a key piece here around like if you don't if the. All the processes in your head, which happens as you mentioned, with a lot of smaller retailers in particular because. Well, here's the thing, most of the time as we kick things off, we have to do stuff ourselves. We have to make all the decisions because for whatever reason, maybe money's tight or maybe we just don't have the capacity, the managerial capacity to make stuff happen. We have to step in and do this as leaders of our organization. Right. But absolutely there comes a time where the ceilings hit like you can only make so many decisions in a day as a leader. You got to make the decisions at the top as level. And if you don't have that accountability structure so that other people can follow a process and make decisions without you being involved, it's a real problem. It's a stopper to fueling progress. Absolutely. And it's also a, it's a frustration for the people that work for you that don't want to feel micromanaged. You know, everybody wants to feel that they can make decisions in their life for the best interest of either themselves or those around them. I mean that's like humanly that's what we want to do. So that micromanaging or that thing that frustrates employees is when they're held too tightly. And I have a very good Friend that through the next gen program that has a single store, A quick story, if you don't mind, has a single store. This person has a single store, was looking to expand to a second store. This person has a young family, wants to be a good spouse, wants to be a good parent, wants to maintain the business and then grow the business. And we did some quick back of the napkin math and then the thing in the equation that didn't figure out is how do you clone yourself? Yeah. How do you be in two places at once? So unless you're ready to have a mind to, okay, I'm going to have store number two, but then maybe three and four, so I can have a layer of infrastructure in there and do that relatively rapidly or have enough financial resources to be able to have to get a clone of yourself hired to be somewhere. You are only going to run yourself ragged. You're not going to make any more profit. It's just not there. And so the process side of it, it's like the forging of the bonds, making sure that your people trust you, making sure that you can find somebody to be your clone and then implement that process. Or else all you're going to do is be frustration and then you're not going to be the parent that you want to be, the spouse you want to be the business person you want to be. And it's a recipe for disaster. So I'm not saying don't grow. I'm just saying think about the growth and what all it takes. Because clearly I believe in growth. Yeah. I believe in. Know we had to. But we had to make sure that we were able to do so and preserve the family. And by the family, I mean our internal family and each of our four other. Yeah. I mean, there's six families at stake, you know, like. Yeah, yeah, it's a big. Sorry. I get, I get all excited. I get all like, yeah, me too. And it's such a big thing. So from putting on that exit planning hat, you know. Yeah, it's. I just spoke with somebody in the outdoor retail business the other day, and it's an outdoor retail association and they have a lot of different members. And you know, the, the person that was putting on the show as we were talking about a speaking engagement, but she said, you know, we have a lot of retailers that are really getting up. There is lots in their 70s. And she said, some in their 80s and one in his 90s that does not have an exit plan. Wow. Okay. And you know, this kind of stuff is real. Josh it's real. And when we look at some of this stuff, as much as we're talking about growth, one day you will exit your business. Yeah. And you know, whether it's death, whether it's divorce, whether it's disability, whether it's partnership disagreements, which also cause a lot of exits, there's lots of different reasons for business. Exits, exits. So one of the things and the reason I started on this little tangent was you, you talked about smart growth. And smart growth also involves how do we exit the business. And from that perspective, when you have a group of partners, it's like having the right partnership agreement, making sure that you're having the right meetings with the business owners. Like, how do you and your team get together? Like all of the actual owners? Because there's that owner level and then there's that manager level. Right. So. And it's really two different conversations, isn't it Jo? It is. So the shareholders of the corporation, which are my four brothers, plus my dad and my aunt, we all six meet on a quarterly basis and have a shareholders meeting. And my dad currently sits as chairman of that board. And so quarterly we meet to talk about previous quarter plans for the next quarter, big expenditures and high, high level like business planning stuff. And mainly around are we hitting the cash flow numbers, are the profit targets and all the, you know, the number side of it it. My brothers and I meet on a weekly basis really just to touch base and we just talk about what's going on in life, what can we do to help each other this next week or two weeks, what's going on and this sort of thing, what's going on, the business that we need to focus on because we're the four that are really doing the day to day running of it. And it's a way for us to touch base. And then our executive team, they also meet on a weekly basis so that the meeting that the four brothers comes after the executive team meeting and they just, they meet on a weekly basis for 90 minutes max. Oftentimes they're under that they follow the EOS protocol and they solve issues. Yeah. And so my brothers and I, we, we, we, you know, we talk about life and we talk about business. And it's a way for us to touch base because we're not always together and, but we have to be in alignment. And so that, that's our, that's our rhythm. Yeah. What would you say to somebody who's got one or two stores and they're like, we don't need any kind of Rhythm like that. We're in the store every day. We're doing what we want to do. I mean, I know my answ. What's your answer for this idea that we don't need a regular meeting rhythm or, you know, everybody knows what they do. We don't need that sort of structure. We're kind of like. It's like we got it covered. I would counter that with this. Our entire employee system knows that if something comes up that needs to rise up to that level, the cycle is. It gets dealt with on a Tuesday. So if somebody has an issue on Thursday or Friday or Saturday, they know that. That next Tuesday, if it needs to get up to the team level, it's going to be talked about. So it gives peace and calm because they know that, okay, there's a normal rhythm and cycle. Like nothing is left hanging out there. I can't. I mean, I can think of a million. But it doesn't matter what it is. If it, you know, if it's something that needs to be handled by that executive team, it happens on a Tuesday. And then if there's an issue that comes up that can't be solved on that Tuesday, then it gets shelved to the quarterly meeting and then. Or not. Yeah, I mean, it gets talked about at the quarterly meeting. And, you know, so they know there's a rhythm, that their issues or are going to be addressed by the people that can actually solve the problem. So it gives a lot of peace. And that's what organizations, they need peace. I mean, there's enough external whirlwind, tornado coming around that the rhythm gives peace. I like to use the word. I like peace. And that's the first time I've heard anybody say that rhythm gives peace. I often will say that rhythm gives clarity. And, you know, clarity and peace combined together is quite a nice little business, isn't it? That's like everybody knows what they're doing to do, and they're doing it in harmony. That sounds pretty good. I think a meeting structure that regular communication. I've got this other sort of thing that sits on top of those six Ps and I call it the CMA. And it's that leadership structure, which is communication, management and accountability. And I think that's where the clarity comes. Like, we're always communicating what's happening, and somebody who's in their store every day will say, oh, well, I. I'm always around and stuff like that. But what happens when you're not, and what happens when, you know, you do want to Take a vacation and does everything fall apart? And what happens when. If you do have to sit out for a month or two months or three months because you got in a car accident or you had to have a bypass or whatever the case is, you know, we, everybody. And I'm listen, I'm talking to you, the listener. So right now, not so much, Josh, but you probably know somebody in your life in business as a owner who has had something like that happen where they had to deal with cancer or they had to deal with a heart issue, or they got into an accident, they were out of their business for a little bit and, or they had a partnership disagreement and some, you know, stuff hit the fan and it's like, you know, we got to make some drastic changes here and people leave. Here's the other thing. If somebody else leaves and then who takes care of that stuff? All of these different things. If we don't have this stuff in order, if we don't have a regular communication rhythm, if we don't have a solving sort of system that helps us work through, and not only us as the leaders, that helps our team work through issues without us, then we're always going to be relied upon. We're always going to have to be there to answer those questions, and we're never going to enjoy some of the freedoms of being a business owner. And I think this is one of the things I feel kind of sad about for a lot of small business owners, because when they reel back, they're thinking, okay, well, I got into business because I want a better life. Yeah, I want to make some more money, but ultimately I want a better life too. I want to enjoy some freedoms. I want to do a few things outside of business. I want to be a family man. Whatever your freedoms are or whatever you want, they're different for everybody, and that's perfectly fine. But your business should be there and set up with a system that allows you to enjoy some of those freedoms, whatever they are. And if it isn't, then there's some work to do. Right, Josh? Oh, absolutely. Because you work so much harder. I mean, I don't know what it's like to leave a job at five in the afternoon and not think about it

until the next day when I get to the office at 8: 21:02

30 and then on the weekends. Not thinking about, like that concept is foreign to me. When you have your own business, it's 24 7, 365. Even on vacation, like, there's no. I was fortunate enough to take a vacation and I Only had six zoom calls in that seven days. And I thought that was, I mean, that to me is a vacation, right? So if you think you're going to own your own business and sit on a beach somewhere drinking Mai Tai's good luck, I mean, help me find that business, right? So because you're paying that price of all the time working, then you need to eliminate the frustrations. And so your communication and accountability like that is, you know, by the way, those six zoom calls were all things I enjoy doing. I mean, that's part of the process. Alignment is making sure that somebody likes the job they're doing and they're capable to do those that job. So then it doesn't feel heavy. We use that a lot in our business, like when we're trying to IDS something now talk about it, even if it's not in somebody's purview like they're supposed to do it. Say, does that feel heavy to you? Oh yeah, that feels heavy to me. Great. That feels light to me. Let me go do that for you. Like that's. And that happens on our executive team. That happens across our organization. And so because it's so mind consuming as a business owner every bit of your thing, then you have to find ways and hacks to make it so it isn't so like the weight of a heavy blanket on your back all the time. I love that. And I've got a few years back I developed this exercise that I work with different business owners around and I call it love it or leave it. And the idea is you know, just in a quick sort of of layout, you list everything that you're accountable for. And most people can get 70% of it in the first sort of 15 or 20 minutes on a sheet of paper. And then you leave that sheet of paper beside you for the next couple weeks because there's all kinds of stuff that you're not thinking of right away and you're like, oh yeah, I'm accountable for that too. And oh yeah, I'm accountable for that too. So you start writing all these things down. And then after you kind of have confidence that I've got most of them finally down on these two or three pieces of paper, then you re categorize those into either I, I'm good at it and I love it. I'm good at it and I don't love it. I'm not good at it and I love it. I'm not good at it and I don't love it. And then you start proportioning Approximate, because you can't, you're not going to be down to the, to the minute. But you start saying, I'm actually spending 25% of my time and I, I'm not good at it and I don't love it, let's say, and I'm spending 50% of my time in the stuff that I'm good at, but I don't love and I'm, you know, and I'm only spending 10 of my time in the area that is the stuff that I really love and I'm good at. So now I'm getting a picture of, wow, you know, I'm accountable for a lot of stuff and a lot of times the business owners, and some of them are better than others, but, but, you know, because they've worked their way into the areas of what I call it their love it zones already. But what more can you pull into your love it zone so that you're truly spending the greater majority of your time in your love it zone, which is the most powerful for you in the business, the most effective for the business? And here's the next piece of the puzzle. You let your team do it too. Because once your team does it too, and we start as leaders now, we're starting to help those people move out of the stuff that they're not liking and not good at and give those, to give those things to somebody else who is loving that and good at it. And I'll use bookkeeping, for example. I'm very good at bookkeeping. I got two business degrees. I'm like, I understand accounting. I don't ever want to do it. So like, I gave that up a long time ago. I'm good at it and I don't want to do it. But my bookkeeper, who has been with me a long time and just on another aside is some of the issues that we deal with in business. And I deal with them too, even as a business coach. It's like she said, oh, by the way, yesterday, I'm pregnant and I'm going to be out in six months. And she's been with me for nine years and an integral part of our business leadership team. It's like, wow, we're going to have to make some decisions, right? And work through some stuff. But from that perspective, I don't want to take back over the bookkeeping. I can't. I'm capable. I'm not going to take it back over. We'll work through the process and we'll work through the system and we'll Align that with somebody that loves to do that in her absence, and then when she comes back in the following year, it'll be still going and running with her systems that she's set up and aligned and, you know, all of these different pieces of the puzzle. We want to have people working in our business that love what they do, so when they come into work, it doesn't seem like work for them, too. We not only want that for ourselves, but we want it for our team, because that's when the team gets really powerful. Well, absolutely. And, you know, it's an interesting thing when we know what we love to do, and then, you know that we. What we don't like to do, and it's. Sometimes it's hard to conceive somebody would actually want to do that. Absolutely. There are people that love to do the things you hate to do. And that's where Colby really helps, is like, you know, really, when I said, my brothers and I kind of do this, it's interesting. Our. When our numbers overlay, you go, okay. That's how it can work smoothly, is make up for each other's deficiencies. There are things. I. I mean, I. I can write an order. I hate writing. I wrote orders as a buyer for years. Like, I am. I. I just. I don't want to do that anymore. But you know what? I have people that love doing it, so why not line yourself up to the things you love? And we're saying the same thing, and it really does work. I love that. Four quadrants. I mean, that works fantastic. Yeah. You know, for anybody that wants that, who's listening, you can just go to one of my websites, simplifying entrepreneurship.com and forward slash, love it. L, O, V, E, I, T. And you'll get that download with those couple of sheets, the worksheets and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, you. We've basically outlined it here how it is, too. Yeah. And from that perspective, I. I think it's just such a great exercise because not only. And we. And we redo it fairly regularly, like once every year, sometimes every two years, but because your accountabilities change over time. And as much as we like to have this structure and say, like. Like. And the clarity of the accountability, you kind of assume accountabilities along the way for different things that happen. And it also makes you start to think about, oh, yeah, I am accountable for that, and, oh, yeah, she is accountable for this, or he is accountable for this. And is that in there? Is that in their structure and does everybody else know that they're accountable? Because if they don't, then they're bypassing and they're coming to me. Right. And when you're a growing organization, it's even more vital because in the course of, in an 18 month or 24 month period, if the company's grown and then there's people just assume response, oh, this needs to be done, that needs to be done. And then all of a sudden your job description changed away from, I mean, yeah, it's your job description still there, but the, and, and, and so through growth. And I, I love that idea. In fact, I love it. And I think I'm going to have my, the next quarterly session, I'm going to have my, my team implement that. And because in our next phase of growth we outline, we had a five year meeting at the end of, and we did our, our next five year plan. So our team now knows going well, that means we're going to have to hire new people and where do those people fit in? Well, why not let our executive team have the most job fulfillment by focusing on the things that they're good at and they love assigning or maybe even having to hire create a new job description for the things that they don't love but need to be done. If nobody on the team can do that, that's the person to hire for. And then you match them up with your core values and now all of a sudden that's, I mean we've done that time and time again, just not a formal thing. But, but I like that. And I don't mean to tell you, like everything is rosy in the growth period. By the way, when I was a younger much when there was no gray in this beard, there may not have even been a beard. I had a temper and I worked very hard over the last 15 years to tamp that temper down. And in the last 12 months there was a situation that came up and we were in a shareholders meeting and a situation came up and I had a reaction that was just not typical. It was not in alignment with our agreed way we were going to operate. It was not in alignment with who I wanted to be. And I had an experience where, I mean, I felt like I was outside watching myself completely freak out. Yes. And the damage that that potentially could have done to myself and one of my family members and, and actually that it, you know, could have done to everybody who witnessed it. Right. Which was the whole family and of course, you know, calm down and everything became smooth. But like the idea about Having a. A set of rules about how we're going to interact with one another, I love that. And when. And then when we fall short, having the grace to go, you know, I mean, I was very thankful for the grace that was given to me, but I also was, like, I was willing to humble myself and say that, you know, the situation was a situation. It was. The problem was the reaction to it. And, you know, I mean, things get stressful and on and on. And, you know, the people that are going to let you down the most are the people that you love the most. Like, really the people that. My least favorite attribute in an employee is unrealized potential. When I see somebody who could be so good and for whatever reason, do not rise to the level of their real, true abilities that you see with them, that bothers me. Really, it bothers me. And I saw that we can overcome anything if we decide to stick with our core values and then have the humility to say, I fell short, I did wrong. Because out of that healing, something beautiful comes up. There's a Japanese pottery. Are you familiar with this? They take a broken potter. The name escapes me, of course, but they take a broken pottery and then they put it back together using gold. So what's left, what becomes is a beautiful piece of pottery that is unique. And you look at it and you see that was once broken, but now it's even more beautiful than it was. And you don't shy away from that brokenness, but you acknowledge it, and you see something beautiful can be made out of a brokenness. This person that we are close again. Because I was willing to be humble about how I handled the situation, and they were willing to show grace and forgive. So you talk about forging bonds. Why do I love forging bonds? Because we all need grace. I mean, we all do. And that bond is unbreakable in a family business. Or, I mean, it is breakable, too. We've seen family businesses never, never recover from situations like that. So I was just thankful that, you know, we. We have that foundation that my. My dad and my aunt laid of how to really be. And when I fell short, didn't hit my potential, then it was given to me. So I don't know if that. I don't know why that popped into my head, and I don't know why we went down that path, but it popped in. I felt like, well, nice, because I didn't want it. I don't. I don't think I want everything to sound like it's all rosy. Oh, yeah. You keep buying stores and you're opening wholesale and. No, no, no, no, it is not. It's the same here. Like I said, you know, we, we. I just had one of my two. I have two key people and you know, one of them is going to be out of business for us for a year because here in Canada they get a year maternity and so. And we have to hold their job for them to come back. So I know in the states that's not the, in most states anyway, it's not the case. But here in Canada those are. And we want her to come back too, because she is a vital part of our organization. But nonetheless, it does create some hiccups and it does create some process and we will have to train and hire and, and, and I will be running the Love it exercise, Love it or leave it exercise because we want to see what we can do internally and we want to see if we can break up our job externally and have some outsourced partners maybe take care of some of the stuff in her absence. And you know, all of those kind of different things are the pieces of the puzzle that we all have to work through. But I can tell you something, because we have a good culture because she knows she's a big part of the culture. She's already hon of the stuff that's uniquely hers. She's like, I got all kinds of loom videos done and everything will be ready for, you know, and all of this stuff. And, and it will be. And I have the utmost confidence because we, this is the culture that we're trying to build in our organizations. Josh. Right. She knows she's in charge of her job, not me. Yeah. And she wants to ensure that whomever's taking over those things are going to do it the shootopia way. I love that. And you know, I, I feel like you're probably leading your organization like there's two great motivators in life. Right. There's fear and love and broad strokes. Right. Fear is a great short term motivator, not great in the long term. And if you're leading an organization fearful, then she's afraid to tell you that she's going to be gone and then she's not going to set things up because it's not going to be right. When you lead out of love, it's like she knows she's welcome. She, she's doing all of it. And that's really the way that, I mean, I've tried to, you know, that's in the forging bonds part. Of what I like is like leading out of a heart more as I show grace than people show me grace. Like I may have had a bad moment, but that bad moment, like isn't my define right. We tend to judge other people on their worst day and we judge ourselves on our best day. We really need to flip that, you know what I mean? Because so I didn't want to be that guy. I wanted to leave an organization in love. You're leading yours lovingly and you're saying like, hey, look, so she's doing all the stuff you need done it. There can be bumps, but they're not going to be like made. I mean, they're going to be the things. But here she is already creating, like you said, creating videos and doing all this stuff. Like it's awesome. It's awesome. It'll be, we'll be ready to go. I said to, you know, these are very. I literally found this out yesterday. But this is the thing. When we're talking in the retail world and any other business world here, but as business owners, for anybody listening, you've had this kind of stuff happen. So what happens when somebody gives you that kind of notice or when somebody says like in your organization, I'm talking to you, the listener. Yeah. Like what happens if somebody gives you that notice? Like what, what's the process involved? Like how does that lay out and what's the culture behind it and how do things happen and all of these things? I think, you know, so many small business owners don't give this stuff any real thought, but I do think that there's there everybody needs to have time to think about their business in some of these ways. So that when things do happen that are out of the norm, then we have this culture that takes over for the decisions that need to happen. And you know, as much as we both love process and we both love to have things lined out in a, in a specific way, there's managerial discretion in there too. And there's cultural decisions that need to be made, which are these one offs. Whether we're making them as leaders or whether our team's making them on our behalves. They need to understand what the culture is so that everything happens in alignment. And the biggest piece is when it doesn't happen in alignment, what happens? How is that dealt with? Right. Yeah. I'm fond of saying, like we cannot make the exception the rule. No. So it's like all the processes are the process. This is how we do it. And if your culture is one that people aren't afraid for their job, then they're willing to document their processes. Because for example, in a shoe store, right, if your stock person isn't able to come in for two weeks, three weeks, you're not going to be like, I mean it's going to be a, it's going to be a speed bump, you know, but it's far different than your number one salesperson or store manager. Like those are payroll, right? Yeah, right, right, right. So, and, and the people will be willing and, and happy to make sure that there's a, a documented process so things can run smoothly in their absence when they're not worried that oh, if I document this, they're going to fire me. No, no, no, at all. We need to plan for worst case scenario. And then the managers and so that becomes the rule, right? And then the exception to the rule is where managerial discretion comes in. That's like those are the one offs and when your culture's great and they know how to do everything, then the managerial discretion and there's no fear in making the managerial discretion. You know, you make a exception, you just do the best and then just things keep rolling as retail stores that are open 362 days a year, 12 hours a day. Like, you know, problem today got to be solved because tomorrow there's a whole bunch more over multiple locations. So yeah, it's interesting, we were talking there about managerial discretion and stuff like that and I think one of, one of the pieces of that puzzle really revolves around you mentioned it. Do they have the confidence to make a call without your involvement? And I think that's a really interesting spot to be and I think how that's dealt with is also interesting because when things happen without your involvement on these one offs that aren't in alignment with process, how do you review them and what happens if they didn't happen the way you might have done it. And the way I look at it is that 90% of the time that person's making the right decision anyway. 90%, like maybe even 95% of the time, if the culture is right, they're making the right decision. They didn't really need you involved. But if there was something you might have tweaked, then that doesn't become a slap on the wrist, that becomes a coaching moment so that you're coaching them through. If something like this ever happens in alignment with the culture, this is how another lens of how I might have looked at how that could be handled. And it becomes like this idea that as leaders we should Be their guide. We should be their coach. We shouldn't be their sort of, of boss, you know, whipping them. We should be guiding them along culturally to say that all of this can be done without my involvement. And if there are some little areas where we want to tweak, those are the coaching moments that we, we have as leaders as we communicate, manage, and assign accountability. Right, Absolutely. And as you're, you know, when that happens, the approach, I, I, I have this happen most of the time in the, on the buying side of the business or on the personnel side of the business, because there's a lot of things that are just not black and white. You know, there' nuance. Right. In those two areas. Finance is finance. Like, I mean, it's like one plus one is two. It's always, you know, that's what it is. And I find myself often asking questions like, help me to understand, help me to see what. What are my blind spots. Like, why did you choose this brand over that brand, this style over that color, whatever or whatever the scenario is then when it reports back. Well, you know, we used to, you know, black used to always be the number one color in an athletic shoe. And guess what? It's no longer the number one. It's like the number four color. Like, oh, okay. Well, I guess I haven't been deep in the buying for a while. Like, you know, just because that's the way we've always done it. I mean, talk about the kiss of death sentence. Oh, that's how we've always done it. Okay. Oh, yeah, right. Like, I mean, one of the things you always do is pay your bills. That's one of the few harder fasts. But, like, I don't like that this is what we've always done. I like, look, Data is there for a reason. And so when my buying team says to me, oh, no, no, no, we, we don't buy that shoe in black anymore. Best color is this the best color is this? Best black is number four. Oh, I mean, that's just a recent sc. Right. I asked the question, and they are free to answer because they know I'm not asking from a. Why are you doing this sort of a, like, harsh thing? It's more I seek to understand. I want to know, you know, like, what's his name? That, that show? The guy who was curious. Ted Lasso. Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. What a great approach. I was anybody ever mad at that guy? He's just always asking questions, you know, at least the first season. The first season was the second season. I haven't seen the third one yet, actually. I'm just literally watching the first season for the first time right now. So that one. Oh, yeah, that one rang home. Home for me, Josh. That's good. All right. Yeah, Yeah. I think we've had an awesome conversation today, Josh. Forging bonds, fueling process and embracing the thrill. And I know you are of like, mind to me saying that independent retail is strong and independent footwear retail is strong, and we need to make change and we need to, you know, keep up with things, and we can't always do it the way we did it in the past. We do have to forge ahead. And I'm so glad that you're a part of my network and that we get to have some conversations here. I'm glad we could share it with the. The listeners here today of the footwear retailer. So thanks for joining me for this episode and I'm really looking forward to having you back for another great episode here. Hey, thanks, Pete. And would you put like, my email address? I like to be accessible to other. Other retail. That forging Bonds piece is very important to me, and I mean, I'll extend it. Shoot me an email. We can set up a time to talk. I mean, I, I want to be accessible because I have. I don't think I have all the answers, but I find the, the business is fascinating to me and I love to meet new people. So I would make myself accessible to anybody who's listening. And, I mean, we'll see where that goes. I might have to change my email address. I doubt I'll get. I mean, the truth is I doubt I'll get a lot of inquiries, but I mean, shoot, if you're listening to this and you want to just chat, shoot me an email. Let's set up a time to talk. And I don't know what we'll talk about, but I mean, it'll be great. To be show notes, too. Josh. Go ahead and give them your email address. It's Josh R H C O I N C dot com. Josh R H C O I N C dot com. That's me. Absolutely. Thanks again, Josh, and look forward to talking soon. Make it a great day.