Crafting Your Competitive Edge: The NSRA Blueprint for Footwear Retailers

Are you a footwear retailer looking for expert mentorship, networking opportunities, and business growth strategies? In this episode, Pete Mohr sits down with Mark Denkler, President of the National Shoe Retailers Association (NSRA), to discuss how independent retailers can access exclusive industry resources to grow and future-proof their businesses.

Learn how to:
→ Connect with a powerful retail network that helps you succeed
→ Overcome common business challenges in the footwear industry
→ Use AI and data-driven strategies to improve store performance
→ Save money through NSRA’s partnerships and member discounts
→ Join exclusive educational events and mentorship programs

Join the NSRA today: NSRA.org
Connect with Mark Denkler:
📩 Email: mark@nsra.org
🌐 Website: NSRA.org

Follow The Footwear Retailer Podcast for More Insights:
🔗 The Footwear Retailer
📲 LinkedIn: Pete Mohr
📩 Contact Pete Mohr: pete@simplifyingentrepreneurship.com

🔔 Subscribe & Hit the Notification Bell for Weekly Industry Insights!

 P.S. Want to future-proof your footwear business with the right connections and strategies? Reply to this email, and I’ll share how you can tap into exclusive industry resources today. 

PLUS: Whenever you're ready, here are 3 ways I can help you move from the Operator’s seat to the Owner’s seat in your business:

1. Take the Value Builder Assessment to better understand the areas of your business that add the most value to your business - Click Here

2. Uncover your Kolbe. Whether just for you, or for your full team, better understand leadership strengths and ways you can advance your People - Click Here.

3. Listen my other podcast Business Owner Breakthrough podcast as well for quick tools and tips - Click Here

Transcript

0:01

Mr. Mark Denkler, it is a pleasure to have you here on the footwear retailer today. It's great to be here. Thanks, Pete, for inviting me. Yeah. You know, Mark, we've known each other for quite some time now. And just to be upfront with everybody listening, I'm actually on the, on the board of directors with the National Shoe Resource association as well and do some coaching within the organization. Right. In the trade publication. We'll get into those couple of different things in a bit. But from your perspective, Mark, if somebody is listening to the podcast here today and has no idea what the National Shoe Retailers association is about, what they've done, give us the synopsis, Give us sort of the global of what it's all about and why somebody who owns a footwear store, in my opinion, needs to be involved, but would want to be involved. Yeah, well, we're 100, we're started in 1912, so we're 113 years come April 4th, I believe. Even though it's called National Shoe Retailers association, that kind of makes it seem like it's United States. But at some point we added our Canadian brethren, including yourself, and we have two other Canadian board members. So it is a, you know, truly North American, I guess maybe English speaking, even though we have Browns, which is in Quebec and you know. Yeah, so I shouldn't say just English speaking, French and English speaking. But we don't, we don't have any Mexican retailers or anything like that. The organization is here only to help members. So when I go to people, people ask me a question. I said, I work for you guys. My only job is to help you guys. If you need consulting for like, I've told people to contact you or one of our board members for, for mentoring. I had a store the other day and they're just like, I inherited this business. We didn't have a computer system. It was pen and paper. And I'm trying to make a go at it, but then introduce her to a couple board members, sat down with her and gave her some ideas on what, what she should be doing, you know, maybe looked over her brand selection, you know, so there is kind of some consulting. We'll have a next gen class next week. Kind of getting or, well, getting ahead of ourselves. But you know, one of the people there, he's just like, man, can I just sit down with you and use some of your experience? Had a shoe store for 27 years and then I, I was in banking for 11 before that. So just using in, in banking, I was in audit and then I went into lending. So, you know, I have that audit experience, but also have that lending experience. And I know you've round organizations, but one of my primary jobs when I was in the bank was lending to companies, taking over other companies. So it was, you know, how can you increase sales or maintain sales but decrease cost and things like that so you can pay back the leverage debt you have. So. But I've been on the board since 2005, I believe, so this would be my 20th anniversary. So I was chairman of the board when our prior president, Chuck Schuyler, called me to say he's retiring and suggested I take over his job. So flattered, told him give me a week to think about it. But after talking to my wife that night, we decided that was the thing to do. And, you know, my whole business is to help retail. So if we, we have contracts that we, we work with, we, we get vendor partners. We have a credit card program that a single store, double store or two stores, three stores, they might not be able to get the same discounts we do. We get $600 million. And in credit card processing, shipping rates, same thing. We use the leverage of our 2700 stores to get good shipping discounts for everybody. And so those are the things that we can help you with. Because of laws, we can't offer all those benefits in Canada, you know, especially credit card and shipping, because they're totally different transportation laws and banking laws. But then we have other partners that we work with that will help you with insurance, get you. I mean, actually, right now one of my biggest project is trying to get health insurance for the U.S. another one, we have partners that can help you with digital creation and marketing. We have one that will do service contracts that will give guarantees on your shoes. And so basically, somebody buys a shoe, they pay maybe$10 extra for insurance and that gives them a guarantee on the shoes. And so we have lots of different partners like that. We try to do strategic partners. We can't be the experts at everything. So we find the people that can help us offer our members, you know, these discounts or things that they can't get by themselves. And I think the biggest thing that I had was that, you know, I. Is the networking. I mean, it's just totally invaluable. I still remember meeting you, I don't know where it was, but we were at a roundtable at one of our footwear forums, I think maybe eight years ago or so. And you introduced yourself, and I'm like, man, this guy, he knows what he's talking about. And, you know, took me, I think, four years to get you on the board. You know, that, that was good to, to get you. But it just, we, we talked, we had an issue, we talked about and I was impressed with your, what your knowledge is. And so a lot of it is networking. So we, we provide a conference footwear forum, we call it. And that, that is one of the things that we do in there. There's times to, you have about six and a half hours that you can be with vendors looking at product. We have education and then it's a network. But so it's meeting other retailers and going through the same struggles and, or successes and telling other people about that. You know, shout it from the highest mountain, you know, if there's something good going on. Not you ask everybody, how's business? Most people go, oh, it's great. You know, then you get down the nitty gritty. Well, we're only 2% down. You know, our margins were bad. But, you know, it's, but you, your friends were not competitors. Like, if, if I still had my stores, you're in Canada, I'm in the United States. There's no reason we shouldn't share information. So there's a lot of information. One of the things when we go to those, I mean, I sit at tables with my direct competitors. Right. You know, a couple of the other people that come to those regularly, we are direct competitors. Like they are the closest shoe stores to me from. We still share that stuff. The idea here is that we need to build the industry and we need to build better footwear stores throughout there. There's an abundance of opportunity. And you know, when we go to these different events, it's just. That is the real catalyst for me. I mean, you mentioned it yourself. A lot of the programs that are offered that are sort of those corporate programs you mentioned off the bat aren't available in Canada. That's still okay with us. There are still a lot of Canadian vendors that come to the NSRA events and are part of the NSRA because they see these other values like that you could make, you could have one conversation that a hundred times your investment in a year with your NSRA fees would save you that just by having one conversation around a roundtable like you just mentioned. Yeah, I mean, it's. Our membership dues are $249 a year. As I said, I got on it. We, you know, one, one thing I didn't say, which was primary, main mission right now is education. So at Our footwork forum, we have speakers, you know, as well as exhibit time, the networking, but we have speakers to help you talk about, you know, things that you might be interested in. I try to stay fine tuned with what, what's going on. We have our group that meets every other Thursday and I participate in that so I know what they're going through. So then I can gear speakers, you know, Right after Covid, everybody had a problem hiring employees, maintaining employees. So we actually spent two years getting employment experts and how, how to get your staff to be rock star. I forget the gentleman's name, but you know how, how to motivate, motivate your employees, how to get the most out of them, how to hire employees. So it's these speakers that we have. And then I, I go to different shows. I mean, I went to Canada. We didn't do any at the afa. I didn't do education there, but I was in Chicago at the end of January and I, we had a AI component. We had a speaker that worked for always AI. And you know, he has a, he, he didn't realize it at the time, but I said, hey, you can monetize this. If you can make this for shoe stores. It was using cameras to figure out, okay, where people are going, what's their touch point. They're staring at the shoe. They picked this shoe up. How long was somebody waiting before they were acknowledged? How a store count? I mean, all these things that you can use with AI. And I know you're, you're, you're the one who showed me AI a few years ago. But using those tools to better yourself because you can't be in your store every day. Some people have multiple stores or if they're traveling, but you can get a report at the end of the night. If this gentleman does his work and brings it to fruition, you could get, okay, we had 80 customers today. You sold 40. And then your system will tell you how much you sold, but it'll let you know, okay, you got two people that kind of walked out. They looked at shoes, tried them on and walked out. They weren't acknowledged. What shoes did they pick up? I told them, I said, well, if you get AI to figure out what size shoe they are, that'd be great because we all know what a lot. Of that, you know, not the size. Yeah, but the size in which I know you use technology to the fullest. And so that's what I try to do. I mean, I go to, I'm a delegate of the Expo Riva. Shoe show in Italy. And they have an innovation village. And I always participate. I'm a judge on that. And I do it so I can bring back this, these ideas. This is actually something that I saw three years ago. It was actually using phones versus cameras at the time, but now with the AI using cameras and be able to detect things. But it was, how many people come to your, your store? Where do they, where's the flashpoints? But now it's evolved into cameras. And this guy's going, you can use your security cameras. It doesn't have to be cameras we install. So there's so many things that we can find. So that was one of our education. And then Atlanta, we having the AI presentation there with Alan McCloskey, who is one. Who was the chairman before I was, I was his vice chairman and just, he's, he retired. Same with me. Sold his, his stores and, you know, but loves the industry so much and he wants to get back and he, he, like yourself, got into AI. We got to figure this out. You know, when I'm looking for the footwork for him, all these people are AI. You know, the speaker that spoke 10 years ago, now he's an AI expert. I'm like, okay, I'll, I'll just go with what, you know, what you had before. And I know enough people about AI. You'll be on a panel. And this is another thing here. We have it in Chicago, we have it in Atlanta, and then we'll have it at our footwear forum in April. You'll be on a panel about AI with Al Makoski and with Joe Jensen, who is the vice president of retail at intel, who's really an industry expert. So, you know, we'll be able to, to talk those issues to get people going. You know, I'm planning a trip and this morning I went into chat GPT. Okay. Six days in Sorrento. How do I, you know, well, what's the perfect itinerary? And you know, so it's, you know, using those things. But there's so many more things that you can use with AI for as we've gone over, oh, making job descriptions, hiring, you know, your employee manuals and things. You know, everything still has to be reviewed because AI, the open source is only as good as. It's never perfect. Right? It's never perfect. But, you know, we try to stay up on these issues and guess the biggest buzzword is AI right now. So we're going to have three different classes within three months on AI. That's great. And Alan's going to be a guest on this show as well. He just confirmed, we haven't recorded it yet, but he's going to be a guest down the road here too. On, on the footwear retailer. So excited to have him on as well. Yeah, but I mean he was, you know, former chairman, he was a retailer of the year, I was a retailer of the year. So we, we've been recognized for being strong retailers and we've given back to the nsra. So you hear these conversations. I remember once I said we, we had a education thing and I, it was on finance and being a banker for 11 years and doing billion dollar loans myself. Okay, you can't teach me too much about finance. But the one thing I learned from that conference is, oh, you can put your credit card machine through the Internet and your, your, your time will go from 13 seconds over the phone to 1 second approval on the Internet. Well, on my big days that was enough. That, that was some, that was the key takeaway that I took. And, and every time we go and, and, and learn at one of these things, you're always taking away these key things and they compound to make a better business. Right. And this is what we're trying to do with the NSRA and this is what we're trying to do here on, on the footwear retailer too is to help people have a better running business so they can have a better business and a better life and you know, they can make more money and, and enjoy the money that they make as well. Mark. Learning. Yeah, exactly. Knowledge. I sat in the back, but now I'm in the front seat because I want to learn, you know, because knowledge will make me better. Our competition, the department stores, the big box retailers, all those guys use data like crazy. But we have those tools that we can do and that's what we try to offer people. To stay up with your competition. You put on more miles than I know anyone else in the, as far as air miles, going to all these different shows over to Italy a couple of times a year, hitting almost every major show in North America seasonally. It's, it's an amazing amount of travel and talking to people, seeing the things out there, seeing what's new. 1. I used to work in the trade show industry and one of the things I always loved about the trade show industry when I was there, setting all the, you know, all the different things coming into town up through university was you always saw the latest and greatest and the newest things and all the things that were on the leading Edge. What are you seeing out there in the last few shows and the last few things that not not only from a product perspective, but what are you seeing that you, where you're seeing? I mean we talked a little bit about AI, but what else are you seeing? Where the industry is going and what, what shifts are you seeing these days in your travels this season to the shows? I think it's as we said, using the best technology that's out there as we do. And you, you use, you use L loom technology where you can tape your, your recording to your managers or if you're, you're gone on vacation, you, you can, or if you're in Italy or at a show and you still something comes up, you can just get on your phone and use that and it's always better, you know, writing a long note. You, you could do a four minute video presentation where your, your thoughts are there versus okay, I gotta write this. I'm doing it on my phone because I'm traveling, but doing that, but using the latest technology. And that even goes to shoes. What's the biggest trend in shoes right now is hands free. You know, Kiss came out with it a few years ago, then they were bought by I believe Nike and then Skechers did it. I know another brand has come up with it. That's kind of the big thing is the hands free, especially for us. I mean independent footwear people, they work with people. You're sitting fit most of the time. I know your stores aren't, but I'm sure your people give the advice for sure. But when you're sitting there and I mean I was, I'm in South Florida, my stores were to the older clientele, mature clientele we would say. But yeah, they couldn't bend over. I mean one of my best sellers was a two foot shoehorn. You know, so they could get their shoes. But if you can now get that in and then give them the stability and it stays on their, their foot, then you're, you're way ahead. So I think that, you know, that that's what I'd say is the latest technology and then just you know, waterproofing trying to be more sustainable. When I go to Europe, that, that's all the talk is sustainability. Oh, I'm making shoes out of plastic bottles or this or that. The United States and Canada aren't there yet. I, I kind of tell people we're about five years behind what's going on in Europe. But you know, those are big buzzwords and you know, you hear that from the younger generation as you and I are, I'm a baby boomer. I don't know where you are. But you know, the, the generations, that's important to them. And so it is, you know, as I say, keeping up with technology because you and I, if we had stores, even though you're in Canada, they might still go and find your website and they'll find that shoe that I don't have and then they can get it shipped to them right away where I have to, oh, I got to wait three weeks for the manufacturer to send it to me. Yeah. As we record this, President Trump has, has outlined a whole bunch of tariffs for cross border. So that's going to be something that we'll have to play depending on how things go here over the next little while because it's supposed to, supposed to come into effect tomorrow. So I know the Canadian retail listeners, it's a big concern for a lot of stuff, anything crossing the border up to 25% tariff and going back down as well, not only in footwear but across our borders for everything. So it's going to be a big deal for both countries as we navigate through this major shift here depending on what the legislation comes in here. But certainly one of the things that is on the mind of many Canadian retailers and other business owners and I think starting to catch the ear of some of our US Friends as well too, because a lot of the stuff is going to deeply affect the, the American consumer and maybe not so much in our industry, but because there's not a ton of Canadian made product, but there's components and the components each, each time a component crosses the border. So, you know, all this tariff talk is one of the things that I know is, is a big thing for a lot of the listeners here on the, at least on the Canadian board side of, of the border at this point in time. We'll see where things line out, but something our industry is definitely going to have to deal with here over the next little while as both, well, we have even in Ontario. We're, we're switching having an election here in Ontario, Canada's biggest province. And there's a bunch of things going on there and all of that, lots of different things happening that are really out of our control at this level. But it's kind of like Covid, where Covid was out of our control. There's nothing we could do with it. We just had to be, we had to deal with what was dealt to us. And we're coming in along the lines of this, too, for both sides of the border around what tariffs mean for our businesses. Because, you know, the other one is there's a new tariff on everything coming in from China. And even in the States, there's a lot of stuff that comes in from China. So, you know, the new, this new sort of view of tariffs. Has anybody really been talking about that with regards to the industry? Mark, have you heard much? Yeah, I mean, I keep up with the fdra. They work with a lot of more. More about distributors. They do have some retailers in there, but, you know, that's their biggest thing. Okay. I believe the US used to be about 85% of all of our product came down from China. Now it's about 65. But if you're going to add an extra 10% to that, guess what I mean, Our president ran on fixing the economy, fixing inflation. It's over 20% the last four years. So how do you add 25% in one fell swoop on tariffs especially? We have a lot of automobile Detroits across the border. You know, there's a lot of cars made and components made in Canada. So realistically, or even in Mexico, I know that that's reprieve for a month, but that's a $30,000 car. How do you add another $7,500 increase to that car? So as far as shoes, we will see it some with, with Chinese product. I mean, I try to find. One of the reasons I do go to Garda is to find shoes from Turkey and Spain and Portugal and Italy, Germany, Bulgaria, we've done. But, you know, just finding product, new sources because we do have enough, you know, if, you know the Chinese, it's amazing. 30 years ago, oh, we have our Italian manager who's going to China to run the factory. Now you hear, oh, our Chinese factory manager is going to Indonesia or going to Vietnam to manage those factors. So, you know, it's come around. And I did some consulting for the PISA Chamber of Commerce, and they're like, why is everybody going to China? And I, this was about 10 years ago. And I told them, for 20, 25 years, people have made shoes in China. These, those people are skilled. You know, they know what they're doing. You talk about, you know, turfs that, that's above my pay grade. We don't know what the end goal is here. You know, I, I hear what's coming out of our president's mouth, but I'm like, okay, we really have problems with Canadian giving us fentanyl and all these illegal aliens coming from Canada. I, you know, I, I don't know. So that's why I said there's, there's something there. It's above my pay grade, but we'll have to go. But yeah, increased cost is not what anybody wants. Hopefully the shoe industry will be a little protected. I don't know what the Canadian, you know, their percentage that comes from China. But I, I, as I know it used to be about 85, now 65. And especially in that. A lot of. That's a Nike or New Mountains or some of the, the tennis shoes. I mean, even tennis shoes are most. If it's, if it's not leather, that's a 40% tariff already. And now you're pretty much going to make it 50 or so. You know, and just when I was in with Doug Becker in Italy and he was like, okay, that shoe costs$30. Well, to me in Canada, it's a $60 shoe one because the dollar to your. And then the, the tariffs that go already there. So, you know, it's, we can't make things more expensive for our retailers. Yeah, it gets, it gets to the point where they're, you're pricing yourself out of the range of what people perceive as good value. Our expenses are going up, so most, most likely we have to pass it on to the consumer. Will the consumer. Is their salaries going up enough to pay the high thing? I mean, I always say we sell shoes and it's a discretionary item, but so is going out to eat. So it's going to a concert. Absolutely. You know, so we, our competition is not another shoe store. It's where that consumer wants to spend their money. You know, who would think that you, you spend$3,000 going to a Taylor Swift concert. Oh, I'm going to fly to Sweden. I'll get a ticket for 800 bucks. I'll get my hotel, my airfare just to go to a. Well, that $3,000 that they spend it going there. Guess what? They might not have the money. I mean, my niece did that, so she doesn't make a lot of money. So guess what's going to sacrifice is her shoes. She's not going to buy as many shoes. She won't go out to eat as much. So, yeah, everywhere it's all around discretionary earnings and discretionary spendability. Right. I couldn't agree more. I think it's a big thing that we're going to have to deal with as things continue to rise in price. So if the cars get more expensive, maybe they'll buy shoes. Yeah. That's what we're going for when we think about that. What are the other sort of pain points that you're seeing that independent retailers have today? Maybe more so than they did a few years ago. What are the things that are more current, that are. You're hearing from the retailers out there saying, oh, my gosh, I got to deal with this. The biggest problem we have right now is weather, climate change, whatever you want to say about it. You guys didn't have as much snow last year. It was a. And I don't know how it was this year, but, you know, people did not. They get their boots in. And I was talking to one retailer, he got some boots in late July, and he said, We've had 45 days over a hundred degrees. I don't know what that is in Celsius for Canadian people. But he's just like, then why'd you get them in in July? Well, that's when they sent it to me. You know, it's like, well, just tell them don't ship before September. But for you guys, you know, in talking with Doug Becker last year, he had lots of boots and he had to get rid. It was in one of our calls, they, they said, yeah, we had to mark down all those and get rid of it. If you're strong and you can keep it, then you can keep those over for the next year. Throw them in your garage or wherever, box them up, get them out of the shells. But, you know, we don't all have the room either. Yeah, it's. It's definitely been a problem. I mean, Doug and I are in the same sort of territory and we've had a little bit more snow this year, but winters are not what they used to be, that's for sure. And when we're buying for that mini season of winter boot and, and it's. It's a shorter season now. Right. So how many do we actually need? And, and are people thinking, well, if I buy my winter, my winter boot, that deep winter boot, where I'm really only going to use it for, you know, let's say a month or so in between, My, my fall boot type thing, that winter boot lasts a long time. They don't need as many either down the road. Right. So it's just, it's a very interesting thing. You know, one of the things, Mark, that I've been hearing a little bit about, and I just. It's current for me because one of our stores is, we're renegotiating our lease. And one of the things that I'm hearing from a lot of different vendors out there, not only in the footwear side of things, but on some of the other people that I coach to, is that leases are going up pretty dramatically. Is that something that you're hearing? Yeah, because those leases that you negotiated during COVID to go down if it was a three or five year lease. Well, if it was five year in 2020, something was coming. Or when you, if you got concessions, guess what that five year period now is? We're in 2025. We're five, we're five years now from COVID the beginning of COVID And like the one of the people that bought my store, he was able to negotiate a 25% discount in rent. Well, that came up last year and guess what? It made it. One of the reasons I got out of business was because I did not want to sign that, that long term lease. An extra five years at my age, at the price my, I think I've told you my rent was going to go from$50, what I was paying to $100 on my street. And sure enough, some fool is in there selling sunglasses. I hope he makes it. But I, I just go, how do you, that's, that's $310,000 a year in rent. How's it, that's a lot of sunglasses to sell. So the leverage is gone. You know, there's still problems with offices and people working remote and stuff. But no, for a prime retail space, all those contracts are coming up now. And so that's, that's the big, big problem is that if you have those coming up and you don't have an option, you're negotiating new money and they have the upper hand because we've, we've recovered. We talked a little bit about the people problem off the start of the podcast here. I mean, that's an ongoing one for all of us. And you know, hiring, retaining, you know, training, all of these different things as being one of the, one of the key pieces of things that we're always trying to work on. But what, what are some of the other things maybe that are, you're seeing outside of AI? Because we've, we've chatted about AI, but what are some of the things that are really starting to maybe click that weren't clicking before? Like what are you seeing that's working now? I think everybody, because it was so hard getting employees, people had to realize, do I have the right culture? And we talk about that a lot. Okay, is it for sure? I mean, okay, I can maybe make more money just being a teller at Wells Fargo or something like that. How do I get the culture that they want to come in? Like running stores can operate off of a smaller margin. Mostly 45. My stores maintain margin was 55. So when I first heard that running stores are at 45 and you're getting it, how do you survive? Well, they get more turnover and guess what, they're, they're employees that are working there. They're runners in most cases. Yeah, you go, I mean you're runner. Where are you going to go to a family shoe store? You're going to go to a running store. So you go to the running store. So in the family area, we have to build the culture of our store, make it fun, you know, okay, every now and then take your manager out for drinks after, afterwards or you know, bring in some pastries. But you know, know what's going on in their family, know what their family troubles are or what's going great. Okay, it's somebody's birthday, you know, so I think it's, you want it to be a place where they can come in and have fun for eight their, their eight hours or eight and a half hours or whatever their, their shift is that you have the culture that they want to be there and be long term employees. You know, some of the most successful, oh my average employee has been here 22 years. They have the culture. Right. You know, but in today's society, the younger kid not to bash on the it, the new generation, it's totally different. And you and I don't think that way. So we have to go back and this is what we had from our speakers. You know, you have to figure out what, what makes them tick. As my wife says, you need to learn what makes me tick. But then you also have to learn what gets me ticked off, you know? Yeah, I love that. Figure out what makes me ticked. And words. It's managing people. You know, you have to learn everybody's touch points of, okay, so all of your employees or your manager, you know, if it goes down, if you're not in the store, if you have multi storage, your manager needs to be able to, to do that. My managers, you know, they always in that sticky situation, they're an employee but then they're my in go between, between sat. So I needed to know, okay, there's problems that you know, people are mad because they're, they're working too hard. I mean we all have our seasons, you know, so people can understand that. And like in my Business. Okay. It's April. I just need three more weeks and then I'll be able to take a day off. Yeah, I won't take a day off. From Christmas to. We had a parade on. Thanks. No, St. Patty's Day. That was my first day off. But, you know, I went three months without having a day off. But I'm the owner. I get the riches of the doing well or, you know, if it's not going well, you know, that, that affects. But you, you have to make sure that your employees and, and what was also with less employees working, you had to make it more fun. You had to make them want to come in. Okay, you got to handle three customers at a time for sit and fit. You know, how are you doing that? But guess what? We're, you know, we were talking with one of our board members. She did, I think$12,000 with three employees. That's$4,000 average per employee. And we're not. The average selling price is probably 135. So that a lot of shoots for. Three years and then to be able. To get the customer service that you and I want as owners. Exactly. You know, so it's, it's, it's building that, that team culture. You know, some people pay by team, some people pay by employee, Some do a combination. I was always more, you want to get the most out of your, your top people. And as I said, you can't. Oh, at my store, I had a B, C, I even had a D employee, but she was 82 years old. And guess what? She would take that 82 year old customer that wanted to talk with somebody and, you know, be shown at a slower pace why my top people can, you know, sell, you know, a thousand dollars with the shoes while she's with that one customer. So you need all of your customers and you know, people say, you know, treat your kids the same. No, you have to treat them based on their personalities and based on what you have in your store that day, you know, because not all employees the same. So I wanted my A employees. You know, if things got busy, my wife and I would ring their registry, let them have that employee relationship. That's awesome. Mark. I want to. Before we wrap the episode up, I want to go through a couple of the things with the nsra and I mean, one of the things that, that I think a lot of, of retailers enjoy is the shoe retailer state publication. And there's always great articles in there. There's good information on what's coming up in the industry, the events that are going on. It's a good place to keep in touch of what's happening. And that one comes out every two months, right Mark? Every two months, yeah. And we, we have a section on our Next gen. I mean one of the programs I didn't talk about was our Next gen program that you and I, you're, you're my, my co chair on that. But you know, teaching the Next Generation. Guess what? The, the vendors want good retailers in there. We had Garrett Pretend of Comfort one and he said I got into the program with the NSRA and I realized there's other people in my same situation. But he said I wouldn't have been in the industry if it weren't for that program. So you know, we were trying to change the or teach the next generation. So there's, there's that Next Generation issue stores to sell to. Yeah, the Next Generation. Such a great program. And for those of you listening, basically what it is is it's a program that helps family transition from one one generation to the next generation. And you know, as we're, we're recording this just before the Atlanta Shoe show, we have a full day event coming up at the Atlanta Shoe show which you'll have missed listening to this, but we do, we've been doing that once a year for the full day live event and then we also have an ongoing bi weekly group with the Next Gen program as well. So if this is something that you're in the midst of a family transition and maybe you would like to join the Next gen, feel free to reach out to either Mark or myself too. And we can tell you a little bit more about the Next gen program that we're running within the nsra. It's, it's been really great and we, we have a couple of social things around at different trade shows and meet and greet and what have you and some education and some really good conversations about not only taking the ownership of the business as you transition into the, into the being the owner, but also the accountability issues and the family conversations that go around them. So I think that's a, that's an awesome piece of the puzzle. And the other one, Mark, is the, the Footwear Forum. We did touch base on it, but from anybody who would like to go to this year's Footwear Forum, if you're listening to this in the spring here, it's in Glendale, Arizona and The date is April 23rd and 24th. And I think you said basically we, you'd like to have everybody registered by the end of February. Here as we're doing it. But that's, that's the one. And then Mark, you've got an announcement for next year's footwear forum. Yeah, actually you're, you, you were with the, the first to know. Our chairman doesn't even know yet, but he'll, he'll find out in time. But yeah, next year in 2026, we'll be in Orlando, Florida at the Hilton Buena Vista, April 29th and 30th. I know for people, they'll be excited to, okay, it's been cold and okay, it's in the 50s and 60s for a high, but guess what, the light like today it's 80 degrees outside. But they'll like being in the warmth of the Florida. And you know, maybe some people can bring their kids for the weekend, you know, have their husband or wife or spouse come down with the, the kids. And you know, Thursday through Sunday they can do a little Disney. I mean even our staff is going okay, I think Friday and Saturday I'm going to stay over so I can go to Disney and Universal. But you know, it's, it's always a great event for networking, looking at product, building those relationship with the vendors. You know, you, you might be like, I was more of a fashion retailer, but I was able to sit down with some comfort retailers that I didn't have relationships with. And when I go to a show at Atlanta or back then in Miami or you know, Denver, you know, Detroit, Chicago, wherever you're going, that you're always seeing the vendors, you know, and you don't always have enough time. I mean Atlanta's three days. I'd have 30 appointments, you know, every, every hour and 45 minutes. It didn't give you the time to look. And I always encourage you need time to look for new product. I have two brands. One brand, I started with 60 shoes and I was selling 3,000 pair within three years. You know, I have another brand, I remember telling the salesman, oh, I just, we're not going to buy this year. But then it was my top brand for 15 years, you know, selling 3500 pair of shoes a year. So it's like you got to find that next next one or get the new hot ones. You know, the, the Hoka, it's only a 14 year old company but they're doing 2 billion in sales. But you can't, you can't get them always because they, they have enough distribution, you know. But if you got them in the right, in the right time and guess what, you're, you're doing pretty well on that. On the athletic side, I know that's. One that we sure have been trying to get for years. But like you said, their distribution has been closed. And. And for our two stores, we certainly haven't been able to get hoka, although we try every season. And I think that's another thing. You just got to keep trying. Right? Until one day it pops up for you. Yeah, but you go to the conference and you're able to sit down, you go, hey, I'm eager. I'm eager. Every year. I'm here, I'm here. They know I know. One of our companies we deal with, they finally got it after five years of trying. And, you know, they. They have a distribution, and, you know, hopefully you'll get it soon or get the. The. The other brands that you're looking for. But that. That's part of it. We have that time, you know, for the vendors, you can sit down with the vpn, national VP of Sales at HOKA or New Balance or Brooks or whatever and have those conversations, and then they'll go, I don't know why we're not in your stores, Pete. You know, we. We should be. And next thing you know, you are, because you're. That. That's why I said that's the networking. You're building those relationships. I mean, everything's relationships. Here. It is. You know, we. We have a great relationship before in town. You know, we grab a burger, you know, drink together stuff. And so those things are important, and you want to keep that up. And you never leave a bad taste in somebody's mind or be rude to them, treat them like people. And, you know, at our conference, I tell our people, you know, visit. I've talked with everybody, and not everything's right for your store, but you never know, you might acquire a store that, guess what? You need that product. You're like, wow, I've blown them off all these years by not being nice to them. Or, you know, you know, I don't need. Or here's the other thing. That rep may go to a brand that you actually are involved with, which happens too. Right. I mean, I have a rep that I. Who will not be named. But, yeah, 30 years ago, did not treat me right. And guess what? They've had two or three brands since then, and I really refuse to buy because to me, it was about character. Yeah. And, you know, they weren't enough to, you know, there's. There's plenty shoes around. You know, the best shoe at one company is the best Shoe of another. You know, in the brown markets, a lot of us, yeah, they, they copy. Oh, well, this sells well. So let me make my version. You know, I was looking for a shoe once and it came out at$375. Well, I could buy it for 200. I could buy it for 150, 135, or 90. Well, I took the 135 because that was my average price. Price. I didn't want to go to the 90. You know, I could probably sell more, but I know I could sell the 135, but the 200, that put me in the 375, that limits my customer. So, you know, you got to, that's why you go to shows, find out what everybody's doing, and then you, you select, you put your. Take your pictures or however people buy and, you know, go, okay. I was amazed. My wife, she could go, oh, we've already bought that from somebody else. I'm like, oh, okay. I, I just liked it, you know, But a good buyer knows, knows what they have and you don't want to duplicate. You can maybe at a price point. But then why, you know, sometimes we overanalyze. Oh, my gosh, this is this. And you're like, they're not going to see the other shoe. Just get the one you like, you know, or with the vendor you want. Maybe it's cheaper or more expensive, but get, get what's right for your sport. First thing I do find all these retailers nearby, went to their stores, and then, you know what I learned from that? I gotta buy for my customer. I can't worry about my competition. Thanks so much for being a part of the footwear retailer here. Marco, it's so great to spend some time with you. And hopefully our listeners have learned even more about the nsra. If they want to get a hold of you, to learn even more or if they want to go online, where should they go and how should they get a hold of you? Well, our website is NSRA.org and you can always email me@marksra.org you know, I do, I do travel, go to a lot of shows, but I, I try to respond within, you know, 24 hours or, you know, sometimes it's tough. You're at a show one day, traveling the next, and you can't. But, you know, try, try to get back and answer all of, all of everybody's questions. And, you know, that that's, I get the most pleasure out of doing that, you know, just, just like you, you know, it's great coaching and mentoring people and giving the knowledge that we've gotten over our, our lives and careers to other people. And if you want to become a member of the nsra, I think you can do it right on the website, too, right, Mark? Yeah, yeah, you, you, there's somebody to contact you. Fill out a form and they'll, they'll get back with you. We don't have capabilities, but, yes, you, you can go online and we'll get, we'll get back with you on that. Awesome. Well, thanks again and looking forward to seeing you very soon at the next show. Okay, great. Make it a great day, Mark. Okay, you too. Thanks, Pete.